#Eulora log for Sunday, 2017-10-01

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*** Quits: mircea_popescu (~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)12:03
*** Joins: mircea_popescu (~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu)18:03
mircea_popescu8mn, go me18:03
diana_comancongrats mircea_popescu , not that bad 8mn18:04
mircea_popescuwas sm, came out all q118:04
mircea_popescuwhich i thought was bizarre tbh.18:04
diana_comanbut yeah, that's the spiel with building: loads -> very low q18:04
mircea_popescubut if anyone needs low q sm to fix their stacks...18:04
diana_comaniirc I kept giving examples of this thing, hmmm18:05
mircea_popescudiana_coman i suppose in a sense it makes sense, if you get 5x more copper out of a copper mine it's gonna be worse quality.18:05
diana_comanas in  http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-05-13.log.html#t15:54:0018:05
lobbesbotLogged on 2017-05-13 15:54:00: <diana_coman> in other observations: when noob "mini-pops" he gets all of a sudden very low q18:05
mircea_popescubut im not a noob18:05
diana_comaneh, thing was same for fox just that at that time I was more noob-mining18:05
diana_comanre 5x more copper -> lower q copper makes sense if one is talking of ~same mine as it were18:06
diana_comansome of it mixed with shit, I suppose18:06
mircea_popescuwell, an ordinary18:06
diana_comanotherwise honestly I'd see it more like some core high q and then a load of shit18:07
diana_comanbut not like...ONLY shit18:07
diana_comanoh well18:07
*** Joins: Gaxaro (d5506a25@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
Gaxarodiana_coman are you there?19:18
diana_comanhi Gaxaro , I am19:18
Gaxarodiana_coman, I fucked up badly, fail my life...19:18
diana_comanhow is that?19:18
GaxaroWell, remember that ordinary flotsam claim? That has been locked all the time, um well, the key for it recently not long ago turned into a little bit o nothing in my inventory19:19
Gaxaroeven tho the claim is locked19:20
diana_comanyeah, they do after a while19:20
diana_comanlocked means only that it lasts ...longer; NOT eternally19:20
GaxaroOh.. Well i thought it did.19:20
diana_comanwell, now you *know* it doesn't19:21
diana_comanhow's it going with the rest?19:21
GaxaroSo that claim is pretty much lost now then?19:21
diana_comanyes, it's gone, nothing to do about it19:21
diana_comaneh, learn from it and otherwise keep going19:22
diana_comanlet me know when you're done with all the bundles19:22
diana_comanbtw, you might want to keep the keys -they will turn into little bits of nothing and those are useful too (to build tiny claims)19:23
diana_comanor at least pick them up I guess, if/when you see them around19:23
GaxaroWill do, and i am at 28 claim left atm19:23
GaxaroI mean bundles, anyway i would have been done with it sooner if it wasn't for the cold i had19:24
mircea_popescudiana_coman no need for wed downtime i don't think ?20:35
diana_comanmircea_popescu, no, no downtime scheduled this week20:40
mircea_popescucool. ima try the bouq bundle again who knows.20:40
diana_comanaha, good luck; when that's done I'll buy either low q mcguyver cons or a bouq cons to click with a noob I suppose20:41
mircea_popescuwill see what comes out.20:42
mircea_popescui figure after this i actually click some dt.20:43
diana_comanheh, ping me in between as otherwise won't be able to trade for ages I guess20:47
mircea_popescuo fuck, yeah, definitely.20:48
*** Quits: Gaxaro (d5506a25@gateway/web/freenode/ip. (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)20:59
*** Joins: kline (~kline@freenode/staff/enucs.kline)21:46
mircea_popescuhello kline21:46
mircea_popescudiana_coman ^ freenode person.21:46
diana_comanhello kline21:47
mircea_popescukline dev chan,  is logged at http://logs.minigame.bz/latest.log.html21:48
diana_comanheh mircea_popescu have you seen the 2 windows shown now for the bps in game?21:51
diana_comanbtw this bouq cons is 466589 bv21:51
mircea_popescuheh i forgot to even look.21:51
diana_comanwhat do I owe you for it?21:51
mircea_popescucheck that out. much better like this.21:51
mircea_popescudiana_coman say 5mn ?21:52
mircea_popescu!~calc 466589 / 30.321:52
diana_comanthat's qabv actually, yes21:52
jhvh1mircea_popescu: 466589 / 30.3 = 15398.97689768976721:52
mircea_popescui got them at 15399 too.21:52
diana_coman5mn works, yes21:52
diana_comanha, rounding is always on spirover's side or what21:53
klineso for using freenode as a message backend, how many people do you think will be connected?21:54
mircea_popescuso far, maybe a dozen or so. in the indefinite future, no idea.21:54
klineacross how many channels?21:55
klinelike, are there multiple channels in game that would map across multiple channels in freenode?21:55
mircea_popescuwell, this may be problematic. the way the next version is designed to work, there will be very many maps. in the most extensive conception we could have about sqrt(players) channels.21:56
mircea_popescudepending how they diverge from origin. but drunk walk usually a good rule of thumb21:56
mircea_popescuin the sense of having a world channel (this) and local per-map channels. and then of course pms.21:56
mircea_popescunow the important point here is that this ISN'T an attempt by minigame to offload the cost of chat upon freenode ; minigame is rich, we can afford infrastructure, and i expect we can work something out. the ~whole point is whether this makes sense technologically.21:58
klineso if you can afford the infra, why are you using freenode?22:00
klinewhere you would have strictly less flexibility than running even the exact same software as we do but entirely under your own control?22:00
mircea_popescubecause then a player could simply pop in his webirc from mt everest and still connect.22:01
mircea_popescurather than re-build all the everything irc.22:01
mircea_popescubut yes, in principle we could just create yet-another irc set.22:02
klineso the neat thing about freenode is that it allows multiple projects to share the same space and mingle22:03
klinebut as far as i could tell, users in your game wouldnt be interested in seeing other parts of freenode, and most of the rest of freenode wouldnt be interested in joining the game chat22:03
mircea_popescuconversely, if all the people who can afford infrastructure take off, there won't be very much worth mingling with left behind on freenode.22:04
klinenow, this isnt me saying "no" or anything, (personally, id love to host you)22:04
mircea_popescuno, i understad. it's an exploratory talk after all.22:04
klinewell, no, because being _on_ freenode is about more than just control, its the network effect22:04
mircea_popescuup to a certain limit, cooperation and so on is a foss goal. but where exactly the limit is depends.22:04
klinebut the network effect isnt strong between players of a game and foss in general22:04
klinebut between foss, it is strong22:04
klineusers of #python are often interested in #ubuntu, and likewise #ubuntu will often speak to #nginx, etc22:05
klinebut as mentioned, it may not even be possible (or desirable) for your players to be able to explore the rest of the network, and likewise, the rest of the network is not much interested in your in-game chat22:05
mircea_popescukline this presupposes all people are equal. this isn't much regarded in the republican ideology. properly speaking someone worth 1mn speaking one line in ngins is more than a thousand worth 10bux each speaking a line each in same nginx.22:05
klineso you'd expect to see players of your game in #nginx, and likewise, people who came for #nginx to find people in there suggesting that they chat to people found in your game?22:06
mircea_popescuin any case -- the players to compile their own client from source, and most clients in the wild are hacked and so on. it's not substantially DIFFERENT people from what you find around freenode as it is.22:06
mircea_popescukline i don't think anyone currently here is just here, for instance. and i don't think any of the players discovered freenode with eulora.22:07
klineok, so there is an overlap in interest? i should preface all this with a mention that i dont know anything about your game22:07
mircea_popescukline yes, it's primary a linux, do it yourself, please hack it sort of thing.22:07
klineif your game particularly focuses on foss for example (im thinking #bussard, for example), it may be a good match22:07
mircea_popescui'm not sure what that means (never seen bussard)22:07
mircea_popescubut : you can't play it without a pgp key for instance. there's a minimum bar which in general selects for pretty much exactly the same thing as ends up in the broader foss movement.22:08
diana_comankline, game's client is open source and moreover, community is totally INVITED to hack it, make bots for it etc22:08
klinebussard is a game where to progress you specifically have to work on and in the game engine - your "ship" instance is completely programmable a la how people often reprogram or extend emacs and such22:08
mircea_popescuoh i recall this.22:08
mircea_popescuwell, similar concept, you pretty much have to make your own bot22:08
mircea_popescuor i guess hack existing item.22:09
diana_comankline, re links/interest for other parts of freenode: eulora uses blender art and the point is to make a way for people to be able to contribute art and use others' art too - so I can see a link there too22:13
diana_comanincluding the more technical part aka importing/exporting from blender for instance22:13
mircea_popescuyeah, once art marketplace is in that'll prolly end up pretty large.22:14
klinewell, like i said, personally id be happy to host you, but im still not sure whats really in it for _you_ guys22:19
klineive passed all the stuff ive got from this further up to a mix of infra and management and see what they end up with22:19
mircea_popescuit's mostly me going "hey, why duplicate work when we could just use and support the work of others."22:20
mircea_popescua freenode hosting eulora chat is larger than a freenode without it, because should freenode end up in some kind of trouble, as it periodically has in the past, it has someone to fall back to. someone else.22:20
mircea_popescusame someone as saved openbsd, assuming you know nothing about either game or me.22:21
mircea_popescusuch'd be the strategic reasoning behind the question.22:21
klinefreenode mostly survives on intermeshed and strong communities, i just dont understand because of my ignorance how your communities mesh with the ones already on freenode, but thats mostly an ignorance on my part22:22
mircea_popescuwell, in any case the matter needn't be decided right here and now.22:22
klinefor example, World of Warcraft and EVE Online both use IRC under the hood for their chat system, neither use freenode22:22
mircea_popescudid they ask to ?22:23
klinesimply because their players wouldnt ever use the game clients as their primary chat clients, and likewise the overlap between the people here and the games are limited22:23
mircea_popescubut did they ask to ?22:23
klinewhy would that matter? for what its worth, we have hosted game chats in the past22:23
klinei think, personally, we'd say no to both wow/eve22:24
mircea_popescuit matters in the sense that since they didn't ask, no, it's not because your considerations, but because of theirs. as far as either wow or eve are concerned, they wouldn't be bothered to scrape freenode off their boot if they stepped on it. which is the 100% as to why they don't use it.22:24
mircea_popescukline well, the question doesn't progress far enough for you to say no.22:24
klinewell, i wouldnt go that far for eve at least, they leverage IRC, and freenode hosted communities and projects specifically, extensively for their development22:25
klinein any case, im not sure how comparing the network you'd like to host you with dirt is supposed to further your aims22:26
klineas i said, id personally love to host you but its not my decision to make22:26
mircea_popescui don't have much aims here, beyond finding if this is a good fit or not.22:27
mircea_popescuso far we seem to have fallen into a pit of insider bureaucratic thinking, which is both fine and instructive. but, the matter is still open for discussion for a while -- we just released and next release will certainly be next year. so there's plenty of time.22:30
kline<mircea_popescu> so far we seem to have fallen into a pit of insider bureaucratic thinking22:30
klinei dont understand what you mean by this22:30
mircea_popescuspecifically the "wow doesn't use freenode for its chat system for the reason we at frenode think this should be" approach.22:31
mircea_popescuwow is a separate, larger entity. the insider view is to imagine all outside entities work as the local entity works. the bureaucratic view is to expect one's own reasons are meaningful outside one's own system.22:32
klineoh, what i mean is, there are examples where for where our strength lies (that is, overlapped communities), other strong believers in IRC (and in eves case, developer friendly mechanics), have probably decided that using other irc infra isnt best suited for them22:33
klinebut i think rather we're talking past each other on that point22:33
klinethe core of my point is that freenode targets foss developers, and games typically target, well, gamers22:34
mircea_popescubut it should be obvious on the face that someone asking is thereby a believer, strong or otherwise.22:34
klinethe overlap between those two are typically small, and that means using our infra isnt a good match for either groups, but as i said, im ignorant (but interested) about your game and its audience22:34
mircea_popescukline except the problem in my head is that a) there exists no such thing as "gamers" and "developers", same people do both ; and b) eulora targets intelligent people, without prejudice. so does anyone else.22:34
mircea_popescukline here's an example of talking past each other : i say "player needs pgp to even play, at all", and you think "gamers". the tradiitonal segment of gamers doesn't know what pgp is, and can't use it.22:35
klineright, and this is my (several times) self-confessed ignorance22:35
mircea_popescua gamer who can get himself organized enough to at least prod kleopatra into spitting out an armored pubkey isn't exactly non-freenode sorta mind, i;d think.22:36
klinewhich is why ive said (also several times) that really im not saying "yes" or "no" at this point, nor is it even my decision to make, but id like to think that my input matters22:36
mircea_popescuwell, sure. you're not on trial here.22:37
klinebtw, has eulora registered as a project with us?22:37
mircea_popescui'm not even sure ; i recall we were in the process of doing it, then the CTO died unexpectedly.22:38
klinemm, i vaguely remember the name eulora but i cant find anything in my email nor in band on the network22:40
mircea_popescuanyway, diana_coman took over the job last year, it involved a lot of various work, finally we chipped the stack down to get to the chat discussion.22:41
mircea_popescuis there more to registering a project beyond getting cloaks for people involved ?22:42
klineyeah, you need it to really stake a claim on single-# channels and namespaces, else another group can do the same, and its also useful for getting in contact with us more quickly in the event of wanting to feedback or in an issue22:43
klineits a quick process, though22:44
mircea_popescuso what's needed ?22:44
klinesend us an email using that as a template, to projects@freenode.net22:44
klinefor what its worth, at this point the feedback is "yes, we'll host you" :)22:46
klinebut hosting end-user infra is something relatively new to us (even where the line between developer and end user (gamer)) is relatively blurred22:46
klineso id probably suggest we keep in touch as it goes22:47
mircea_popescushinohai  mind emailing the fellows, "Eulora", "the definitive MMORPG", link to eulorum and i guess http://trilema.com/category/smg/ , my acct as primary, diana and yourself secondary, claim #eulora as channel and #eulora- as namespace22:47
mircea_popescukline the wiki is community run, for instance, do the links have to all be strictly project owned as such ?22:47
mircea_popescukline should i provision a dedicated server somewhere ?22:47
klinewe dont mind what you do outside of here, if thats what you're asking...?22:47
klinewhy would you provision a server, and what for?22:48
mircea_popescukline no, see, here's the story : minigame (s.mg) is a bitcoin corp, raised like 40mn in current money via ipo. it is the owner of the game ; but it is very community oriented and so for instance it doesn't OWN the wiki.22:48
mircea_popescukline for freenode, neh ?22:48
klinewe wont expect you to host servers or anything as any kind of trade for using us22:49
klinein fact, we'd actively discourage any kind of transactional support22:49
mircea_popescui didn't mean to imply that.22:49
mircea_popescuunrelated question. so far there's three entirely unrelated questions here : 1. using freenode as irc backend for eulora ; 2. registering eulora with freenode as group ; and 3. did you need more servers ?22:50
kline1) yes, we'd be happy to try hosting you and see how it works out for the both of us22:50
kline2) registering as a project would be a pre-req for this, in my opinion22:51
mircea_popescuah ok.22:51
shinohaiWill do mircea_popescu when you get the particulars sorted here :)22:51
mircea_popescuty shinohai22:51
kline3) i dont think we'd ever turn down a new server, but that is best arranged between infra directly, and it would be important to understand that we have ways we like servers to be run - by us, and typically for long periods22:51
mircea_popescui had no intention of managing it myself.22:52
mircea_popescuwhat is infra here ?22:52
klineour infrastructure team22:52
klinethe staff is loosely divided between infrastructure, community, groups, and management teams22:52
mircea_popescuok, but not really actionable for me. what do i do ?22:52
klinehttps://freenode.net/support is the best place to read for server donations22:53
klineit details how we run things, what we expect and give in return, and how to get the ball rolling22:54
mircea_popescualright. to explain -- we're in the process of standing up a hoster. it is of no consequence to stick another server in the rack.22:54
mircea_popescuis "long periods" what, a year ? five ? "until the box croaks" ?22:54
klineid expect probably a year22:55
mircea_popescualrighty. so basically, you'll get email as per above and we'll see where we go. still a lengthy chunk of time before anything specific happens re 1.22:56
klinemost of our agreements are open ended but we'd be disappointed if they ended soon, but it has happened in the past if we've had any kind of issues between ourselves and the hosters or its just not working out for any reason22:56
mircea_popescuyeah, makes sense.22:56
klinefor what its worth, on both registration and actually setting up to use, we're probably quite quick to action22:56
klineregistration can be complete tonight, and depending on your own infrastructure shape, we can get any config requirements on our end sorted out in a few days22:57
mircea_popescuit'd be tested on the test environment first anyway, so it's never going to be time-pressured if anyoine can help it.22:57
mircea_popescuand if you feel like giving it a spin...22:58
mircea_popescujust build and drop your key.22:58
klineits a bit late local time, and i have university in the morning, but ill be sure to try it at some point23:09
klinewhere can i read more?23:09
*** Joins: Gaxaro (d5506a25@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
Gaxarodiana_coman im done23:18
Gaxaroi think i am standing next to you23:18
Gaxaroyou're foxy?23:18
mircea_popescukline no rush, it's gonna be here tomorrow too. see prolly eulorum.org23:20
mircea_popescuo gee whiz, wiki got totally defaced!23:20
mircea_popescudiana_coman im thinking, the recipe window should probably pop above the details window not underneath. do we even have stack control like that ?23:23
*** Joins: hanbot (~hanbot@unaffiliated/hanbot)23:24
Gaxarodiana_coman i will trade you whenever you're ready23:26
mircea_popescukline in any case, http://www.eulorum.org/Installing_Eulora is what you prolly need ; maybe also http://www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup23:27
mircea_popescuGaxaro may have to be tomorrow, i think it's late where she lives.23:28
GaxaroAh okay23:30
hanbothttp://www.eulorum.org/Eulora << restored btw23:32
mircea_popescua nice!23:32
hanbotwas someone keeping a backup of this thing or w/e?23:32
mircea_popescuwell wiki software should backup automatically no ?23:32
hanboti'm not too fond of that "should"23:32

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