#Eulora log for Monday, 2020-01-27

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lobbesmircea_popescu: k I'll just bring it back in here once I've fixed it03:18
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fgggis this game still alive?07:33
diana_comanfggg: it is; are you alive though?07:45
fgggdiana_coman, no, we are admist wuhan coronavirus07:48
diana_comanthere's no we around here, there's only V!07:49
diana_comanfggg: how did you find your way in here?07:50
fgggdiana_coman im trying to find something fun to pay during work07:51
diana_comanheh, there's lots of fun around the game too, only it's that thing with ...you need to know how.07:52
diana_comanfggg: what is your work?07:52
diana_comanfggg: re game, there's the [http://www.eulorum.org/Eulora][wiki] with step by step instructions for [http://www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup][account setup]; the client and a lot more besides is [http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/11/euloras-client-012b-and-deps/][on my blog] atm.07:54
diana_comanfggg: as the topic says, this channel is logged and you can read any of it at http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora or http://logs.minigame.biz/2020-01-27.log.html for instance07:55
fgggit says 404 not found07:56
fgggis there by any chance a binary?07:57
diana_comanfggg: hm, are you on windows?07:59
diana_comanfggg: questions doth not bite.08:06
diana_comanor maybe they do bite *some* people, I guess; even questions are alive around here!08:11
* diana_coman will bbl08:11
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diana_comanmircea_popescu: those past few days I kept looking at "why can't we" and I think it's ripe for some discussion really to get to the bottom of the options there.14:10
diana_comanthe core of the thing that got me initially going nuts is that any possible solution that I see is in fact using code somewhere in between old client (aka the one currently deployed) and latest client (aka the one currently set down)14:11
diana_comanbut once I got over that wtf:14:11
diana_comanall the existing formats (cal3d included) are essentially enumerations of stuff anyway; they CAN be used, possibly with a converter on client side, why not14:12
diana_comanie server sends vectorial, client-side bit creates list of vertices or whatever and stores it locally for use14:12
diana_comanbasically ~all of it could even go that route if wanted14:12
diana_comanif one goes all the way to currently working client, it can even go that local bit automatically updates whatever xml lists the client wants, after all14:13
diana_comanesp those that are basically inventories, what's to stop the code to update them as stuff comes in; it will still get loaded only on client reset (because idiots) but anyways14:13
diana_comanthat would be on one extreme14:13
diana_comanit would *still* require that we extract /define some formats14:14
diana_comanbecause for instance there's this mess that cal3d's "material" format is anyway not used14:14
diana_comanso currently client uses cal3d format for skeleton and mesh and animation BUT14:14
diana_comanits own format for material...14:14
diana_comanpartially I suspect because cal3d's format doesn't care about shaders14:15
diana_comantalking of which, the thing with cs's shaders can get solved I think by shoving it where it belongs: let client load its shaders as it currently does; pick some standard shaders to apply to whatever14:15
diana_comanand otherwise don't care14:15
mircea_popescui can see it.14:15
diana_comanthe light and air effects /particle systems will need def separate, there's just nothing other than code + xml currently so no use as such14:16
diana_comanthe gui/2d can stay as it is, let it be the .zip file that can be specific to each client, I don't quite see any standard there anyway or even worth going through a lot of work on that14:17
diana_comanthe terrain format can simply be the set of files required and let client pick its shaders if/when it wants14:17
diana_comanso overall, I think the formats themselves/data transfer is NOT stuck as such on client idiocy; but there still has to be significant backtrack on client side and it will be painfull14:18
diana_comanbecause basically currently running version has many things standing in the way (most notably the "net" part + the "world.zip" and fixed sector(s)) while the latest dev version has already ripped out TOO much to work that way14:19
diana_comanI'm not sure if the above is clear enough/still missing something important14:20
diana_comanI tried to structure this in all sorts of ways and I looked at both versions of code but short of prototyping stuff, I don't seem to get much more out of it atm.14:21
mircea_popescuit;s not clear.14:23
mircea_popescuso you have a running client now, that's not the eulora published client.14:23
mircea_popescuy/n ?14:24
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diana_comanmircea_popescu: yes; one with invisible widgets, no animation of main char (ie stiff movement) and communication only with smg-comms server.14:24
mircea_popescuok, so the problem here is rather : you have a prototype new client, that's not running, in the sense that it doesn't do any 2d (ie, gui) and the 3d is very basic ("stiff movement") and a ways from deployment. but it does the networking part correctly.14:25
mircea_popescumeanwhile the published client does some more 2d and much more 3d, but obviously fucks up the net and other things.14:25
mircea_popescuand the issue is that the splicing of these two together isn't straightforward ?14:26
mircea_popescuwhy isn't it straightforward ?14:26
diana_comanbecause of interdependencies in the code, as usual14:27
mircea_popescubut concretely14:27
diana_comanuhm, so let's take something concrete: as above, if we say "let client use its shaders as they are", one needs to bring back in at the very least some loader of all that xml for shaders14:28
diana_comanthat loader does not come all by itself14:28
mircea_popescubut this is straightforward, you uncomment come code.14:28
diana_comanuhm, no14:28
mircea_popescuit has to be "no, because ..."14:29
diana_comannone of the ripping parts off goes as simple as "you comment out some code and it works"14:29
mircea_popescunot in practice, at any rate.14:29
diana_comanconversely, the opposite is never as simple as you uncomment some code and here it goes back in again14:29
mircea_popescui understand what you're saying. nevertheless, splicing things together never is anything but this.14:30
mircea_popescuIF we admit "this never works" as a first order primitive, therefore we come to the conclusions of beings an engineer : that no code can ever be a collaborative effort in principle, and every manalone must write everything from yahveh down.14:31
diana_comanfor example, the gui/2d thing is currently "basic" because loading one bloody single widget forces back in a huge chain of stuff that already starts bringing in other *unwanted* parts14:31
diana_comanuhm, where did I say this never works?14:31
mircea_popescudiana_coman, do these unwanted parts actually do anything to bother you besides being unwanted ?14:31
diana_comanall I said was need to backtrack and it'll be painful14:31
diana_comanbecause bringing stuff back in IS backtrack, isn't it?14:31
mircea_popescuwell, no. looky here :14:31
diana_comanI suppose you can reframe it as splicing or whatever, but still14:31
mircea_popescusuppose i marry a woman, who has six daughters, and i already have six daugthers of my own. for simplicity, all daughters are six years old.14:32
mircea_popescunow, if her daugthers are unwanted, it means we might feed them, or not.14:32
diana_comanyes, they do, both directly through requiring all sorts and/or crashing because "not there" and indirectly as they add more complexity to handle at any given time14:33
mircea_popescuif six months in we discover her daughters, while unwanted, nevertheless i dunno, provided interesting walpaper with their tits, and so we decide to feed them now, we've not backtracked.14:33
diana_comanmyeah, your daughters are nicely separated entities, lucky you.14:33
mircea_popescuif six months in we discover my daughters, wanted as thry were, now have to UNDO six months' natural development, for instance sucking their nails and hair in, THEN we backtracked.14:33
mircea_popescuso, unless you're stuck undoing your own code, what do you care about unwanted crap.14:34
mircea_popescuand no, they.re not separated, obviously they don't so well distinguish among each other as i do, and consequently they get butthurt when their sisters die of hunger.14:35
diana_comanwell, stuck undoing my own cuts of existing code rather; anyways, I'm not really arguing it either way ie what to call it .14:35
mircea_popescu"could happen to me, weee weee"14:35
diana_comanhmmm, that's some link, but not much of it14:35
mircea_popescudiana_coman, i can certainly see it, "damn it, fucks up all that nice negative space i made".14:35
diana_comanthe link is more like "here we started this work with 6 threads of yours and 6 of mine, got them all woven together, now 1 year in, go and take out 3 of yours and 3 of mine", that's the picture I have.14:36
mircea_popescualrighty, but be all that as it may14:37
diana_comanhonestly though, I am not arguing any sort of "it can't be done" on any direction14:37
mircea_popescuis there a specific serious problem, besides "fuck, now it crashes because it doesn't have a 0-length file in so and so fixed path, motherfucker" litany of mere inconvenience ?14:37
diana_comanhm, it's damned code, what *could* such a problem really be? I can't quite see it ie ~all problems will be that sort of inconvenience and the only possible "serious problem" is if they just add up to too much in one go so it ends up eating a ton of time to get it working.14:39
mircea_popescuthe prototype of this serious problem is what's otherwise known as "dependency conflict". when one side wants something one way and the other the other way, there's no resolution.14:39
diana_comanit can always have defaults for all *types* of things and use those when not available; it can always generate locally whatever shit it thinks it needs14:39
mircea_popescubut when our code doesn't care about /hurr/durr/x.y whereas their code must have it... well so let them have it.14:39
diana_comanwell, is the client a side now? I thought the whole idea is that it will make do with what there is and that's that.14:40
mircea_popescuhang on.14:40
diana_comanhanging on.14:40
mircea_popescui mean : within the client, there's our side (the above http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2020-01-27#1001766 ) and the legacy their side, as found in http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2020-01-27#100176714:41
ossabotLogged on 2020-01-27 10:38:49 mircea_popescu: ok, so the problem here is rather : you have a prototype new client, that's not running, in the sense that it doesn't do any 2d (ie, gui) and the 3d is very basic ("stiff movement") and a ways from deployment. but it does the networking part correctly.14:41
ossabotLogged on 2020-01-27 10:39:11 mircea_popescu: meanwhile the published client does some more 2d and much more 3d, but obviously fucks up the net and other things.14:41
mircea_popescuthis is not a perfect spluit, obviously "their" side mostly consists of damage control we did on even dumber atrocity, over three iterations resulting in as many layers. but for the needs of this discussion.14:42
diana_comanwhen it wants thing "their way", it's either "change it so it wants it our way" or "fine, let it generate it locally/restart to load/basically convert it"14:43
mircea_popescuso there's no actually serious, "well, they want to own the network, and this is baked into ten trillion places and glued in with broken glass, and so we simply can't splice".14:44
mircea_popescuit's just "well, they have all these comic if they weren't tragic spurious dog and pony shows we'll be stuck dragging along even longer"14:44
diana_comanwell, the net in currently deployed client IS baked into ten trillion places and glued in with broken glass, yes14:45
diana_comanI still got it out in the dev prototype, what of it14:45
diana_comanthat's the bitch really: it CAN be made to do what it must; it is however ~impossible to tell upfront for ALL of it , how long exactly ALL will take14:45
mircea_popescuso what's the issue behind http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2020-01-27#1001769 besides a (quite understandable) "i have but one mouth and i must scream" on your part ?14:46
ossabotLogged on 2020-01-27 10:39:45 diana_coman: yes.14:46
diana_comanso if we want to have gradual concrete improvements, I need to start with existing and then chop off bits more conservatively14:46
diana_comanif we go from the other end, there is the risk that it will still take a long time to have it all working14:46
mircea_popescuis the idea here that you expect adding your mostly-net client into the old one will take many months ?14:47
* diana_coman goes to read that thread14:47
mircea_popescuill be around.14:47
diana_comanmircea_popescu: I do expect it will take several months, yes; because I'll need to redo some of the cuts of those bits in a trillion places + with broken glass; and while I do believe I'll be faster about it for knowing my way around, I still don't quite expect it will go extremely fast, because of what it is.14:50
diana_comanie existing client will fucking choose to die because of lack of a ping/pong from server and that IS in 1001 places etc.14:52
mircea_popescuthe foremost part i dislike about this conversation is this tendency to retreat into vague. "some cuts", it may be unavoidable but whether it is or isn't, it ain't helping me.14:52
mircea_popescu(the other part i also dislike is the structure, where interrogation fails to provide the key point, then once i sigh relief and say "well at least it's not X" then the retort comes "no wait, it's X!"... it could've just as well come natural in response to questions so it dun look like it's just being said to be said).14:53
mircea_popescudiana_coman, in that particular example nothing needs changing, why would you take that out.14:54
diana_comanmircea_popescu: this sounds like I still don't get something then14:54
mircea_popescuwhat ?14:55
diana_comanis the server meant to maintain the ps messages/protocol?14:55
diana_comanand otoh you say it's fine if client doesn't run because it doesn't get the pong from server?14:56
diana_comanor do you mean the local net should mimick that?14:56
mircea_popescuthe latter.14:56
mircea_popescudidn't you say you had a client that handles the net part ok ?14:57
diana_comanmircea_popescu: right, let's make this clear because I think it gets muddled into "the net part" and other not fully defined bits14:57
diana_comanexisting client has PS "net part" including the whole set of PS messages and corresponding dance with them14:58
mircea_popescuactually, let me make a complete model from my head, then we can prolly see what the problems are.14:58
diana_comanotoh prototype client does NOT have any of the above anymore and doesn't require it at all, nor does it care about it/nor does it know about it14:58
diana_comanmircea_popescu: ok, I'm listening14:58
mircea_popescuso : eulora 1.2b client has a networking side which works to ps protocol networking, and a gfx side which works to current de facto standard.14:59
mircea_popescueulora 2.0 client has a networking side which works to eucomms protocol networking, and a gfx side which works to a very low standard.14:59
mircea_popescunow, the impediment to simply taking 1.2 gfx and splicing it atop 2.0 is that... ?15:00
diana_comanmircea_popescu: the impediment is that 1.2b gfx is intertwined with 1.2b networking; that part with broken glass and everything else.15:01
diana_coman2.0 client has the networking entirely separate btw because it's the Ada lib and specifically and on purpose separate.15:02
mircea_popescuso rather, that when you took it out the first time you took it out the way you did (ie, producing a gfx-less client as a prototype) rather than cleanly because it didn't look so good ?15:02
mircea_popescumore specifically : did you make 2.0 by writing from scratch, as a prototype networking item, or did you make it from 1.2, by cutting things out ?15:03
diana_comanwhat do you mean "because it didn't look so good"?15:03
diana_comanmircea_popescu: the latter; from 1.2 by cutting things out; and rewrite/add ofc.15:04
diana_comanobv, the Ada lib IS from scratch though.15:04
mircea_popescuok. and the reason you ended up cutting out things like say 3d gfx is that actually keeping them was significant extra work ?15:04
diana_coman(I had to ponder that one because 1.2 is made out of 2.0 by cutting things out AND then writing parts/replacements by scratch e.g. the direct loaders)15:07
mircea_popescuand not even necessarily easy to evaluate how much extra work, at that.15:07
mircea_popescudiana_coman, do you mean, 2.0 from 1.2 ?15:08
diana_comanthat's the core rub and the reason for what I understand must be quite annoying "vagueness"15:08
diana_comanmircea_popescu: right you are; I do mean 2.0 from 1.215:08
mircea_popescualright. what would you say to the concept15:08
mircea_popescuthat indeed while these cuttings were needed for other purposes, they did nothing to cut out any gfx work. everything left behind ~still needs doing~, and however unpleasant, hard etcetera eating the 1.2 gfx stack may appear from this vantage, the alternative is actuall even worse, it's just not nearly as self-obviously worse for lack of comparable familiarity ?15:09
mircea_popescuie, the kid who runs away from rural highschool to make it in town because he knows how hard multiplication or basic func analysis is, but doesn't know how hard making it in town is.15:10
diana_comanI'm not entirely sure I fully follow what is your full idea of "gfx work"15:11
mircea_popescuat some point we'll have to have non-[http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2020-01-27#1001765][stiff] models, no ?15:11
ossabotLogged on 2020-01-27 10:37:58 diana_coman: mircea_popescu: yes; one with invisible widgets, no animation of main char (ie stiff movement) and communication only with smg-comms server.15:11
diana_comanthe way I see it, there are 2 main ways to get the gfx back in: a. use what already works, hence client 1.2b b. implement own aka go from the existing prototypes in 2.0 to production stuff so yes, including non-stiff etc15:13
diana_comannow, with a. the set of problems revolves around interfacing with the madness and cutting away only what really stands in the way (specifically, the main bits currently clear on this: net, ps messages, world/fixed sectors)15:14
mircea_popescuright, we agree on that part.15:14
diana_comanwith b. the set of problems revolves around exactly the unknowns of "make the gfx fully work as it did in old client"15:15
mircea_popescuhence the above comment re running away from school.15:15
mircea_popescuit seems to me self-obvious that a kid who can't even master his highschool class in fizesu' gherlii ain't gonna be much competition to me for "who owns cluj"15:16
mircea_popescuit however DOES NOT seem so to him, which is why i ended up having to shoot a coupla historically. because "the known devil"15:16
diana_comanhonestly, I'm all for going either way, lol; the *only* thing I'm trying to make sure is as clear as we can get it, is the expectation esp re time it's likely to take (which is anyway a bitch to do on "unknowns" obv)15:17
mircea_popescuyou have a specific expectation ?15:19
diana_comanmircea_popescu: for which part exactly?15:19
mircea_popescuthe expectation esp re time it's likely to take <15:19
diana_comanhm, "specific" as in "several months"; so no, I would not say it's specific.15:22
mircea_popescuwell, do you plan on working slower than you reasonably can ?15:23
diana_comanmircea_popescu: no, not at all; and I would not *want* to work slower than I reasonably can, since I honestly do not want it to take even longer than it has to.15:24
diana_comangood god.15:24
mircea_popescuso what is the problem here lol15:24
diana_comanmy inner self going "this should have been done already like in...2018?" lolz.15:25
mircea_popescuyou're talking as if there's some kind of a time expectation on the table and you don't see it can be met. well, whence is it on the table ? do you have it ? ah15:26
mircea_popescuyes well, so your inner expectation that this should have been done like, last year, will have to sit on ice for a little bit.15:26
* diana_coman sends it to ice.15:26
mircea_popescunothing wrong with it in general, but it's a prime manner to drive oneself nuts. "oh, i shouldn've been married already" whatever nonsense.15:27
diana_comanit's more of a sort of fatigue really.15:27
mircea_popescuthe problem is, the above dilemma plays out with fatigue, still.15:27
mircea_popescuye olde "run away from it once, you'll never be able to stand again" unpleasantness of human condition.15:28
diana_comanoh, more of a check with outside world to see if indeed it's just fatigue hence can be discarded or not.15:29
diana_comanchecked and it is, so cool.15:30
diana_comanice-cool even, lolz.15:30
mircea_popescuinasmuch as it has to be done, it has to be done, what can you do.15:32
mircea_popescuanyways, to complete the frame here : http://trilema.com/2020/get-back-to-me/ eventually was resolved through discussion here, specifically : 1. that the expectation we'll have to produce a data model constituent part of the original dilemma was in fact produced by 2. an unstated assumption that we'll resolve the [http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2020-01-27#1001878][reuse-or-rewrite] dilemma in the sense of re-write, 3.15:33
mircea_popescu driven in turn by the felt pain of dealing with the damned thing as it exists.15:33
mircea_popescubut the correct decision is to reuse, on the grounds that however painful we might be aware it actually is, in the most organic sense of awareness, nevertheless the alternative is actually specifically the sort of thing we're trying to avoid.15:33
ossabotLogged on 2020-01-27 11:26:47 diana_coman: the way I see it, there are 2 main ways to get the gfx back in: a. use what already works, hence client 1.2b b. implement own aka go from the existing prototypes in 2.0 to production stuff so yes, including non-stiff etc15:33
mircea_popescuas in, the ever-circling avoidant behaviour of great recent fame, that'll never complete nor does ever produce anything else but enlargements of scope, in a [http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2020-01-10#1001234][reminiscent] threadmill.15:35
ossabotLogged on 2020-01-10 08:13:57 mircea_popescu: with the alt-pantsuit conceptual threadmill, the "counter"-cultural, by-and-for-goffy-kids yet JUST AS PANTSUIT (in [http://trilema.com/2016/give-computers-the-vote-theyre-cheaper-than-women-even/?b=mobilizing%20an%20army&e=do%20anything#select][the only important] sense) threadmill, where nothing is replaced with ever "larger" nothing on a dilated schedule.15:35
mircea_popescudiana_coman, you happy with that ?15:35
diana_comanmircea_popescu: sounds right on point re the re-write assumption indeed.15:37
mircea_popescuaite, well, so if hope's any guide you might discover pain has an optimal distance which isn't 0. much like uncanny valley works, as you get closer past that spot it subsides.15:38
mircea_popescuthe bugaboo effect.15:38
diana_comanmircea_popescu: eh, "on n'oublie rien...on s'habitue"15:39
diana_comanmircea_popescu: specifically and for full clarity though: what's desired next step currently?15:40
mircea_popescueither a working 2.0 with 1.2 gfx stack or a detaled failure report.15:42
mircea_popescuideally built out of good progress reports all the while.15:42
mircea_popescuyou ever play the original fallout btw ?15:42
mircea_popescuah. was a great game. anyways, bethesda made a sorta farmville version recently, and in it the people can go exploring. it looks like so : https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/fallout_gamepedia/9/96/FOS_Exploring.png?version=db3d1c812ee75eb8ee45ca89cfca1cf015:44
mircea_popescuso, rather : "today, approaching this problem. did so and so, worked out / didn't work out but exhausted for the day, will try x next" abnd so on15:44
diana_comanmircea_popescu: one weird side effect of all this futzing with graphics is that I don't want to play computer games anymore, lolz15:45
diana_comanmircea_popescu: do you want daily reports ? it'll be rather counterproductive15:45
mircea_popescui went back to knight's bounty. after ~year spent reviewing pretty much all games made since eulora got started (not even kidding, pretty much ALL), there's still nothing to play.15:45
mircea_popescudiana_coman, pick your own interval, that's not the important part15:45
diana_comanah, that works (as it did before), sure.15:46
diana_comanand yeah, it was by default by now, lol15:46
mircea_popescuit's invaluable, by the time you get to an impasse there's always all the needed material to resolve it.15:46
diana_comanso I'll go to ...hm, pick up again what I just put down, lolz15:46
mircea_popescuthat's not only a very hard guarantee to beat, but also the best guarantee people can likely have irl. so...15:46
diana_comanmap out a plan and get on with it15:47
mircea_popescudiana_coman, in fairness, you were probably ~underoing~ the reporting, as proven by the accumulation that took a while to unload upon setdown.15:47
diana_comanmircea_popescu: by that measure I'll spend the next year reporting all sorts15:47
diana_coman(or more)15:47
mircea_popescustrike your own balance. i have no reason to complain, the part i need from all this was in fact there, so i'm all good.15:48
diana_comanbecause if you go by "the unwritten articles", there are all sorts of things waiting in various corners and various degrees15:48
mircea_popescupast that, it's a tool to help ~you~. so use it, as reasonable, "going back to camp to dump all this stuff takes time / carrying it is heavy"15:48
mircea_popescuaite then15:49
diana_comanmircea_popescu: on other sides of this, since hanbot [http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/14/notes-on-computer-graphics-formats-exporters-and-blendering/#comment-7469][asked] re graphics: using existing formats means the blender exporter will get back on the list of todo as well, correct?16:16
diana_comaneither as update to that blend to cal3d plugin that sort of kind of works or otherwise as reading .blend files directly and spitting out the required outputs.16:17
mircea_popescui've been also looking around, honestly there do not exist good options.17:07
diana_comanof that I'm sure; there are no good options, no.17:08
diana_comanat least that came out of my deep dive into CG and formats and whatnots17:08
diana_comandunno why it had to be such a ...concentrated dive but anyways, it set my mind to rest; and I still like that laban framework and approach.17:08
mircea_popescuhonestly, something like katauri's game engine seems to this day to me to be the ~best one can hope for17:10
mircea_popescuhttp://www.katauri.com/ << actually, i wonder if these people could be commissioned to write a client.17:11
mircea_popescusee, as it happens our sectors world matches so well their maps...17:11
diana_comanI was just wondering the same, lol17:11
mircea_popescusite's thoroughly broken, and... well, ideally i'd have liked someone to pay a visit to the offices, if they even stil lexist as such.17:12
diana_coman~20 people in kaliningrad, huh17:13
mircea_popescuwhatever, i kept hoping the wots will somehow connect at some point, but i guess not so far17:13
diana_comanthey have emails for 3 people from what I see17:13
diana_comanthe forum is dead17:13
mircea_popescuwell, no, there's three defaultish emails.17:13
diana_comanwhat's that royalquest they say they moved on to17:14
mircea_popescui dunno, there's this common practice these days of self-disrespect to an unfathomable degree, "the pressure of the ourdemocracy idiotworld we built is so great, we'll have to... disexist ourselves".17:14
diana_comangrowing old pretty quickly, that's my best description of it.17:15
mircea_popescusomehow [http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-04#1956563][utter morons] manage to disregard how their insubstantail nature isn't either universal or acceptable. somehow mp can maintain online presence just fine such that anyone with a point can talk to him ; whereas all the horde of pantsuitards can't, but... that's ok... because reasons, handwaves an' a wizard did it. out of pure energy no doubt.17:16
ossabot(trilema) 2020-01-04 mircea_popescu: because totally, this is how the pantsuit "[http://trilema.com/2018/the-problem-with-christians/][sincere regret]" device works : gmaxwell is "sincerely sorry" about his 2011 "business" in his mind only wasting a buncha people's coins, therefore "mp largely slinked off into the shadows after one of his crappy businesses disappeared with people's coins".17:16
mircea_popescuwhatever, i dunno how to solve manalone problems. much like i'd like an alf that weren't himself, i'd have like a katauri that were employable rather than useless.17:17
mircea_popescuwhat's wishes do.17:17
diana_comanwell, only today I had some guy wondering into #o because "it's like the unseen part of life" and then asking for "structured data aka forum"; and I don't think he got the problem there even when I explicitly pointed out to him that well, precisely life can't fit in his strict idea of structured data.17:18
mircea_popescustructured data as in forum as in, phpbb ?17:19
diana_comanI pointed out to him he can download the logs and structure them to his heart's content17:19
diana_comanbut I can imagine.17:20
mircea_popescubasically they'll just keep right on asking us if we don't want a pantsuit ~forever. who knows, maybe changed mind ?17:20
diana_comansince there can't possibly be anything other than that...yes, what else can they do?17:20
diana_comanand yeah, I asked and he was....30.17:20
mircea_popescuif anyone knows any of the katauri dorks such that we might sit down to, perhaps, better outcomes than with the blender dorks, do say something.17:21
diana_comanI keep pondering in the background some more concrete way of getting to 15yo or something because it seems that it might be indeed the only thing worth doing about it.17:21
mircea_popescudid i ever recount the story of the scared fifteen year old czech girl ?17:22
mircea_popescui guess not huh. one of these days.17:22
diana_comanI recall some scared girl running to the bathroom17:22
mircea_popescunot http://trilema.com/2017/the-story-of-the-scared-slut/ ?17:23
diana_comanprecisely because I've seen that countless times otherwise and for all sorts of weird "scares"17:23
mircea_popescuchick was like 3017:23
diana_comanyes, that one17:23
diana_comanthing with 15-18 yo is that ...yeah, they get even more scared, lolz17:24
mircea_popescui'm not talking biological 30yos mentally retarded to the degree of being preteens. this was an actual tenth grader.17:24
mircea_popescuarguably they have a point. or you know, the petrified 30yo is just ridiculous. the petrified 15yo... well, could be legit "not ready" biological signal.17:25
mircea_popescuin other news, i'm listening to nick cave's latest thing, dear god, what has this dude done to his voice, gargled thumbtacks, what is it.17:25
diana_comanI guess so; but seriously, when the guy sends his mother to bring me chocolates because he ...is too ashamed to do it...17:26
mircea_popescui was at the travel agents' office last week, and while her girl got me plane tickets some older women came in asking for fliers. because, you see, her daughter's 18 an' they asked for something in this vein at school and she'd figured she'd help her because she has so much work to do.17:27
mircea_popesculeaving aside how there's no doubt in my mind the only reason those were even asked for was such the dumb precious princess cuntlets ACTUALLY GO OUT AND ASK FOR THINGS, as the first, tiny baby step on the ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY path to their enslavement & spending next decade bound naked to cold walls by cold chains17:28
mircea_popescumy first call was "holy shit that chick's lazy". companion disagreed, "i bet you she's just shy".17:28
mircea_popescuon examination i can see it. too shy to ask for ~free promotional materials~, fancy that.17:30
diana_comanwell, if she was never allowed to as much as walk home alone (because dangers!!!) or something...17:30
diana_comanit's not all that surprising tbh17:31
mircea_popescumother gets what she deserves, no argument.17:31
mircea_popescugod forbid her daughter were raped, lawd's mercy!!!17:31
mircea_popescuif only someone could be bothered...17:31
diana_comanoh, since she went to "help", I think she probably wants it that way (or still wants it that way for as long as she's fine to do the errands and feel useful that way)17:32
mircea_popescu[http://trilema.com/2017/friday-night-or-las-moiras-revisited/?b=vieja&e=loca#select][vieja loca]17:32
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